Wednesday, June 19, 2013

"Gingi,"* the red-headed kitchen :) -- progress to date

Original here.

Here's the latest view, complete with Electrolux "Shabbos-mode" dishwasher (still under wraps, literally), GE "Shabbos-mode" stove, the granite counter-top and stainless-steel sink that were just installed last night, and the faucet installed this morning along with new pipes:

Here are a couple photos of our choice of floor tile color (they'll use a larger size):

To be continued.

*"Gingi" is the contemporary Israeli Hebrew word for "red-head."


Blogger The Reform Baal Teshuvah said...

To the degree that it is possible for me to envy a galley kitchen, I envy your kitchen.

Thu Jun 20, 01:05:00 AM 2013  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That really looks lovely! I hope you really enjoy spending time in your kitchen.


Thu Jun 20, 02:36:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Reform BT, :).

Thanks, Kathy.

Fri Jun 21, 12:13:00 PM 2013  
Blogger The Physicist said...

I think you'll like having a dishwasher finally. It saves a lot of time.

Mon Jun 24, 06:03:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

In theory, yes, but the dishwasher probably won't get much use--we're thinking of keeping it fleishig/b'sari/meat, and we don't eat much meat. Nevertheless, keeping it fleishig has the advantage of enabling us to use the dishwasher for the most greasy dishes and pots, and also sparing us the hassle of "switching" the sink from milshig/chalavi/dairy to fleishig.

There are some halachic opinions that, if a dishwasher has steel racks, one may kasher it from meat to dairy and vice versa simply by running it through a full cycle with nothing in it. Unfortunately, we were unable to find a "Shabbot-mode" dishwasher that came with steel racks.

Tue Jun 25, 10:44:00 AM 2013  
Blogger The Physicist said...

So why did you get a dishwasher you couldn't kasher? I would think being able to use it would trump "has the word shabbot in a feature name". Why bother buying a dishwasher just so you can't use it for 90% of your dishes?

What does "shabbat mode" even MEAN for a dishwasher; it's not like cooking where you can't just wait till after shabbat to use it. A dishwaser is a completely voluntary device. "Shabbat mode" should just mean "don't hit the on button".

The more I hear about "shabbat mode" appliances, the more my scam alarm goes off.

Tue Jun 25, 12:38:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

It just means that we can pre-set it to wash a load of dishes on Shabbat. The dishwasher hasn't even been unwrapped and hooked up yet--the contractor insists on installing floor tiles underneath it, lest it leak through to the downstair neighbors in case of a malfunction--so we haven't tried it yet.

Tue Jun 25, 03:15:00 PM 2013  
Blogger The Physicist said...

Was this really such a needed feature compared to being able to wash any dishes you have by having the ability to switch it from milk to meat? I would think being able to wash everything is more important than an autocycle you will probably never use.

Tue Jun 25, 03:53:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Once the dishwasher is unwrapped and installed, I assume we'll be able to find the model number and check the Electrolux website to see whether we can get steel racks. Stay tuned.

Tue Jun 25, 08:31:00 PM 2013  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Shabbat mode seems somewhat useful. I mean, to have it clean up Friday night so everything can be put away Friday night/Saturday morning is really nice. Then load dishes after lunch, and press go after Shabbat, no muss, no fuss.

We use our Dairy dishwasher far more often, but Shabbat cleanup is pretty critical.

Tue Jun 25, 08:41:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

We are considering changing our minds and using the dishwasher for dairy only. Not only do we eat far more dairy, fish, eggs, and vegetarian food than poultry or red meat--even on Shabbat, we're more likely to have fish than fleish--but we almost never eat fleishigs/meat/b'sari (for those uninitiated in the laws of keeping kosher, the "meat" category includes poultry) more than once a day, which means that we'd be running a pretty empty dishwasher, an ecological no-no.

Wed Jun 26, 10:46:00 AM 2013  
Blogger The Physicist said...

Or just get one that you can use to wash everything. You don't have room for multiple dishwashers. If you insist that you can only change it after running it empty if you have steel racks, then steel racks are a HUGE priority and you need to get the information NOW, while the unit can still be returned (albeit probably with a little difficulty). Think long and hard about whether you absolutely, positively WILL use the auto mode. If you aren't 100% sure and you can't get these steel racks you want, then take it back and get one you can use for everything. Keep your money before your mouth eats it.

Also you make an argument about running it without much in it as bad for the environment, but you are planning to run it empty to switch from milk to meat anyway.

Wed Jun 26, 12:23:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

True, but we'd be running the dishwasher on empty fairly infrequently,since we don't eat fleishigs that often. Running a cycle for an entire day's worth of dairy dishes, etc., is much more justifiable, ecologically, than running a whole cycle with nothing but two people's fleishig dinner dishes.

Wed Jun 26, 01:00:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

As to the rest, I'm waiting for the contractor to call me back with a few, ahem, "choice words"--I just left a message that I'm having second thoughts about the dishwasher. Sigh--another Internet search, comin' up. (:

Wed Jun 26, 01:04:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

I spoke to our contractor and lived to tell the tale. He's going to check with the warehouse to see whether the dishwasher can still be returned.

I also had a nice chat with Kitchen Aid via, er, sorry, I forget the current term for Instant Messaging, and was told that we can't order stainless steel racks from them. My understanding is that we need stainless steel racks if the dishwasher is to be "kasher-able." If I'm wrong, please let me know!!!

Next up: A call to Whirlpool.

It's a good thing the boss is in an all-day meeting.

Wed Jun 26, 03:03:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Oh, my, look what I found in one of my own comments to my Calling all kosher kitchen construction experts: a Tzomet Institute link re kashrut:

"Milk and Meat Dishes in the Same Dishwasher

Shalom rabbi: I would like to know if the same dishwasher can be used for both dairy and meat dishes (not at the same time). I have heard that some rabbis permit this while others forbid it. What does the Zomet Institute say about this matter?

Thank you for the question. Indeed I know of rabbis who permit washing both dairy and meat dishes in the same dishwasher, obviously after removing all vestiges of food whenever the dishwasher has been used. However, I would tend to forbid this, certainly as practical advice on an institutional level. My main reason is to avoid conflicts with the normal way that a kitchen is designed – in other words, this would be a policy decision. In our kitchens we keep separate dishes for everything, including pareve, and now, suddenly, how can we permit putting both dairy and meat dishes into equipment which might have food remaining between washing cycles, on the same day, and at a high temperature (halachically defined as so hot that a hand will be "scalded")?

From the halachic point of view, the main problem is food particles that tend to remain at the bottom of the dishwasher, sometimes even for days or weeks. This means that we are concerned not only about food traces absorbed in the walls but about actual pieces of food. In many homes which are not very particular, especially where young people live, dishes full of food are sometimes loaded into the dishwasher.

Those who would like to depend on various lenient opinions (based on the fact that any remaining food particles are spoiled by contact with detergent) should not be reprimanded as long as they make sure to remove any visible food that remains, and especially if they have separate trays for dairy and meat. As far as I am concerned, this is not a good policy, and I myself do not accept it (I have one large dishwasher outside the kitchen and another smaller one inside the kitchen, to provide easy access)."

Not one word about stainless racks, though he does mention *separate* racks. Methinks I'm going to end up with a lot of egg on my face before this dishwasher-shopping party is over.

Wed Jun 26, 03:21:00 PM 2013  
Blogger The Physicist said...

Are you sure this is even necessary?

Wed Jun 26, 05:54:00 PM 2013  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But the Kashrut industry puts out guidelines for restaurants, which is based on extreme stringency and not based upon Halacha.

That is the reason that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein permitted the use of the same dishwasher, but urged people to not wash meat and dairy at the same time. This is also the reason that many Sephardim in my neighborhood use one dishwasher.

The dual dishwasher is an example what a friend of mine's mother called, Americanski Mishigas. :)

It is far more convenient, in a large modern American kitchen, to have two sinks, two dishwashers, two storage cabinets, etc. But suggesting this is a requirement to keep kosher, or more absurd, re-kashering (or throwing out) something that goes in the wrong dishwasher, is common practice, but not based on actual Halacha.

Thu Jun 27, 08:40:00 AM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

I certainly hope that I did a better job researching a stove than I did researching a dishwasher.

Speaking of research, I guess you're used to that, Physicist. :) Thanks for the URL. Here it is in link form, for those who'd like to have a look the easy way: Yuter on the halakha of using dishwashers for meat and dairy.

And here are instructions for creating a link in a comment, courtesy of Kiwi the Geek

[A HREF="put the link here"]put the text here, whatever you want the reader to click on[/A]

For every [, substitute an <.
For every ], substitute an >.

Thu Jun 27, 12:48:00 PM 2013  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Far be it from me to discourage you from using the dishwasher for only one. Plenty of people in my community do so, some acknowledge its a stringency, others do so because "the Rabbi told me" -- no clue which Rabbi or in which context.

If you were in a social circle where the norm was separate dishwashers, I'd urge you to follow the norm so guests are comfortable in your house.

But given that your friends don't keep Kosher, at least not outside the home, and you're the most stringent of your friends, I'm not sure who you're accommodating by being extra stringent.

Not Paskening, not playing Rabbi, if your Rabbi said "separate dishwashers without stainless steel," so be it. But because a Kashrut guide for supervised caterers said separate dishwashers, I wouldn't adopt it for my kitchen.

I also don't have separate parve stuff, and have a ton of glass that we use with both sides.

Thu Jun 27, 12:52:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

" . . . if your Rabbi said . . . "

Miami Al, what rabbi? Our shul hasn't had one in well over a year.

In any case, separate dishwashers are out of the question--this is an apartment, and we don't even have room for a separate sink.

"I also don't have separate parve stuff, and have a ton of glass that we use with both sides."

We should probably try taking the "glass for both sides" approach, just to save storage space. But we've always found it easier to have a parve cutting board and some parve pots and utensils, just so we don't have to worry about what veggies we can eat with what kind of meal. (We've had separate parve kitchen equipment since we started keeping a kosher kitchen 30 years, and it turns out to have been a better idea than we knew--we only learned about Davar Charif a few years ago.)

On second thought, maybe I can bug our High Holiday rabbi--he's been known to make himself available, since he likes having a gig as our leiner/baal koreh/Torah reader during the cantor's summer vacation. Stay tuned.

Thu Jun 27, 01:17:00 PM 2013  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What are you trying to accomplish?

The two questions are:
Am I up to my standards of Kashrut?
Am I up to my communities level of Kashrut?

If the answer to those questions is yes, you're fine. The latter requires some input from the local Rabbi. The former is up to you and whichever Rav you feel close enough to talk to.

Seeking out a Rav for which you have no relationship? What's the point?

Thu Jun 27, 04:28:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

"Am I up to my standards of Kashrut?"

Good question, Miami Al. I guess part of the problem is that, even after 30 years, I'm still learning the rules (see my note about Davar Charif). So I would have to say that, since my store of knowledge is still evolving, so are my standards.

That said, in our previous apartment, the dishwasher was for fleishigs only, on my mother's insistence (probably because of the "grease" problem I mentioned in a very early comment). In our current apartment, the dishwasher broke so many years ago that I can't even remember!

"Am I up to my communities level of Kashrut?"

What community level of kashrut? Okay, that's probably not a fair statement--there are a number of fellow and/or sister congregants who do keep kosher. We've never really discussed what our standards are, but no one from my community has ever refused to eat in my home. Asking what my kosher co-congregants and other friends from the neighborhood and elsewhere would accept in terms of dishwasher use might be a good idea.

"Seeking out a Rav for which you have no relationship? What's the point?"

Actually, since my husband is Ritual Committee chair, we're usually invited to join the High Holiday rabbi for Rosh Hoshanah meals in the synagogue, so we've gotten pretty well acquainted with him over the last couple of years.

Thu Jun 27, 05:52:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Josh said...

Plus I'm also a Gingi! :-)

Tue Jul 02, 01:42:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Rabbi Josh Yuter, I believe? Welcome aboard to the Red-Headed Rabbi, and many thanks/rav todot, Rav, for posting that opinion (t'shuvah?) regarding dishwasher use in a kosher kitchen.

Tue Jul 02, 03:05:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Miami Al, I've decided to take your advice, and am currently conducting an informal survey, both in person and via e-mail, among our shomer-kashrut/kashrut-observant/kosher-keeping friends (local and otherwise) and fellow and sister congregants regarding their own standards for dishwasher use in a kosher kitchen. Stay tuned.

Wed Jul 03, 10:41:00 AM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Received via e-mail in response to my survey:

"THE OBSERVANT LIFE: The Wisdom of Conservative Judaism for Contemporary Jews, edited by Martin S. Cohen (2012), p. 325.

Dishwashers present a special dilemma. It would be simplest to have two, but this will rarely be feasible in most homes. In such cases, only meat or dairy dishes should be washed at a time. In order to use a dishwasher for meat and dairy sequentially, it is recommended to run an empty cycle with detergent between full cycles. The same dish racks may then be used for meat and dairy.

Author of this section is Rabbi Paul S. Drazen."

Wed Jul 03, 10:43:00 AM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

For those keeping score at home, here are the rabbinic opinions that I've "collected" thus far, both via the links in the comments to this post and via e-mail, regarding using a dishwasher for both dairy and meat in a kosher kitchen:

1. Tzomet Institute
"Those who would like to depend on various lenient opinions (based on the fact that any remaining food particles are spoiled by contact with detergent) should not be reprimanded as long as they make sure to remove any visible food that remains, and especially if they have separate trays for dairy and meat."

2. Rabbi Josh Yuter
"According to the Shulhan Aruch cited above, the addition of "ashes" to a pot of hot water is sufficient to mitigate the taste transference from meat dishes to dairy dishes, even when there is actual residual meat fat stuck to the dish itself. Today we do not use ashes but dishwasher detergent which I suspect also ruins any leftover food such as to make it inedible. Therefore, for the Shulhan Aruch it would be permissible to wash meat and dairy dishes in the same dishwasher at the same time. Furthermore, operating on the very reasonable assumption that dishwashers are only run with some form of detergent, there would be no need to kasher a dishwasher if it has been previously used for non-kosher dishes."

3. Rabbi Paul S. Drazen
"only meat or dairy dishes should be washed at a time. In order to use a dishwasher for meat and dairy sequentially, it is recommended to run an empty cycle with detergent between full cycles. The same dish racks may then be used for meat and dairy."

Additional opinions welcome.

Wed Jul 03, 10:59:00 AM 2013  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While I'm not a rabbi, Rabbi Yuter is 100% correct that the Shulhan Arukh would permit this. That said, it is not normative halacha and nobody who is serious about kashrut would follow this. That's a community norm issue, but is an important consideration.

Rabbi Drazen's opinion has more utility. Some Orthodox rabbis would permit this if you bought a second set of dish racks. Very few would permit it on the same dish racks, although using the logic of the addition of ashes/detergent, it would seem that dish racks shouldn't be a problem. This assumes stainless steel walls. We use the same dishwashers on Pesach (we have meat and dairy dishwashers), but with different racks and food traps (chametz is a bigger issue than plain kashrut).

I think (esp since you aren't orthodox and don't have a community with standards to think about) that R. Drazen's approach is a very reasonable one. I'm not saying I would do it, but in my community, that would never fly.

Fri Jul 05, 09:30:00 AM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

Anon., here are the responses that I've received to my "community kashrut standards" survey thus far:

1. *None* of the folks I asked --all of whom are Conservative--would use a dishwasher for meat and dairy dishes at the same time!

2. Some would do nothing between one type of dishes and the other. Others would prefer either switching racks or running an empty load with detergent in between one type of dishes and the other.

In terms of our own standards of kashrut:

1. We've never washed meat and dairy dishes in the *sink* at the same time, so why would we do so in a *dishwasher*?

2. We've always scrubbed the sink before switching--running an empty dishwasher with detergent would be the functional equivalent. That may have to suffice, since I can't imagine where on earth we'd find room to store separate racks in a kitchen the size of a tuna can.

So I agree that R. Drazen's approach may work best for us.

Fri Jul 05, 03:29:00 PM 2013  
Blogger Shira Salamone said...

For the record, our High Holiday rabbi said to run an empty cycle between types of dishes. I must remember to ask him whether that would work to make the dishwasher kosher for Passover.

Sun Jul 07, 10:16:00 AM 2013  

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